Arlen: Welcome to the Agency Health Podcast, where we dig deeper into key agency health topics, mining actionable insights to help build a better firm. This episode is part of a mini series on new business, creating new client relationships. I'm happy to have Jake Goldman and Mark O'Brien joining me today to talk about the future of new business. Jake founded his agency 10up in 2011, grew it to 300 people, serving clients like Salesforce, Hilton, Harvard, and Disney. And in 2023, merged with Fueled where he continues to serve as a partner and a vocal advocate for open platforms. Mark is CEO of Newfangled, a consultancy that helps agencies build effective new business systems. Newfangled has been sharing their expertise for three decades through their newsletter, blog and speaking, and has helped hundreds of agency clients reach their market. To set the stage, it would be great if each of you could briefly lay out the foundational go-to-market approach you've built your success on. At the core, what are the timeless new business principles and practices that come to mind. [01:05]

Mark: I think a core theme for most of what I have to say, both in terms of Newfangled’s success and what we've seen work across our client base over the decades, is focus. Digging deep into a category, understanding it, loving it. It’s not required, but it helps. We started with agencies in ’95, born out of agencies, and have served that world for 30 years. The compounding relationships that come from that are rewarding. The more you serve a specific audience over time, the more expertise you gain — and the more generously you share it, the more fruitful it becomes. That’s the heart of it for me, and part of the eternal truth of marketing in any century. [02:35]

Arlen: Focused. What would you say, Jake? [02:40]

Jake: The initial strategy for 10up was an integrator strategy — picking a platform, knowing it deeply, and building relationships with those who needed execution and services around it. We invested in that ecosystem — hosting partners, design firms, and others — so we weren’t doing all lead gen alone. We also chose a space that wasn’t yet commoditized. Back then, WordPress was growing rapidly and gaining enterprise traction, so we positioned ourselves early in a platform on a strong growth curve. That timing and depth were key. [04:50]

Arlen: So I’m hearing a lot about focus and also how you choose that focus. [04:55]

Jake: Right — focus, but in a space you can grow with as the market expands. Partner deeply. Don’t go it alone. [05:10]

Mark: Yeah, that allows even more focus — you can do one thing very well, better than anyone else. [05:15]

Arlen: For you, Mark, it’s been about choosing the customer first. For Jake, it started with a platform and evolved from there. What about your go-to-market approach has changed in the past few years, and why? [05:45]

Jake: A lot’s changed — especially our evolution from being a one-trick pony. When you grow past $40–45M in revenue, there’s only so far one platform can take you. So we broadened — new partners, new technologies, new ways to be known. We also started emphasizing faster content production, more targeted outreach, and campaigns that go beyond thought leadership alone. AI has also accelerated everything — the speed, competitiveness, and expectations of go-to-market work have skyrocketed. [07:40]

Arlen: So if we focus more on tactics — what day-to-day shifts have you made to adapt? [08:15]

Jake: With new tools, we’re producing quality content four to five times faster than two years ago. Competitors are doing the same — it’s a race. Quality hasn’t dropped, but the bar’s higher. Even small shops can now produce tangible case studies and posts that used to take larger budgets. AI’s acceleration is the biggest tactical shift by far. [09:35]

Arlen: Mark, from your wider lens — how are agencies overall doing in this environment? [09:40]

Mark: Honestly, I’m deeply worried about agency health. The downward pricing pressure is extreme. AI and offshore labor have eroded traditional agency services — copywriting, design, coding, editing — everything. COVID’s aftermath normalized remote work, which removed the stigma of offshore labor overnight. Combine that with economic slowdown and layoffs from big tech — now we have thousands of freelancers competing globally. Everyone’s producing 5x more content, flooding the market with noise. It’s brutal. [13:25]

Arlen: There’s more content, more noise — even if quality hasn’t dropped, volume has. [13:30]

Mark: On the whole, quality has gone down. I’m not anti-AI, but agencies must reinvent — not tweak — themselves to survive. Many owners are in their 40s and 50s and thought they’d be in a different career stage by now, so this reinvention is hard. I’ve never seen more pain in the industry than in the past two years — not even during the dot-com crash or 2008 recession. [15:05]

Jake: I agree with much of that. There’ll be creative destruction — many product businesses and agencies will fold, but the survivors will lean into strategic thinking. The tactical “hands-on-keyboard” work — coding, design production — will drop drastically in value. Clients will still spend, but expect more strategy and creativity for their budget. The industry’s bar has been raised dramatically. [17:30]

Jake: I do think we need perspective — these forces aren’t new. Offshoring, pricing pressure, the need for strategy — all existed before. What’s new is the speed. But I’m curious, Mark — you said offshoring changed after COVID. I haven’t seen that shift accelerate as much; maybe it’s different for us since we’ve always been remote. [18:00]

Mark: Before the pandemic, agencies took pride in their offices — fancy spaces, big city addresses. Clients would visit and meet the full team. There was stigma around offshore talent — accents, foreign locations, etc. That stigma vanished overnight in 2020. Now clients don’t care where the work is done, as long as it’s done well. Agencies are being forced to offshore to maintain margins. [20:20]

Jake: That makes sense — within agencies, comfort with offshoring has grown. For clients, maybe less so, but yes, it’s become normalized. [20:45]

Arlen: Let’s dig in a little more, Mark. Looking at the past year — what major tactical shifts are you making in how you market for your agency clients? [21:10]
Arlen: So if we get into any major tactical shifts you're seeing and how you approach that, how you need to approach that to be effective for them. (21:15)

Mark: Yeah. Just to frame things here, Newfangled is a digital marketing agency. That’s the sphere we operate in, and that’s the only thing we’ve ever known. To acknowledge, there are lots of kinds of marketing and biz dev far outside of the screen — and I’ve always believed the best approach is the combined one: right events, right stages, right people, plus strong digital canvassing to build relationships at scale.
Looking back, SEO and email used to drive biz dev for agencies. But around four years ago, SEO completely died out as a reliable lead generation source. AI tools like ChatGPT and Perplexity changed how people search — now users get answers directly instead of clicking links. That means traffic and inbound opportunities from Google have collapsed.
LinkedIn, however, has taken the lead. Despite spam challenges, it remains the strongest B2B platform for lead generation. (21:20–25:45)

Jake: The data’s indisputable — Mark’s right that “zero-click searches” are real. But I’d add that not all those lost clicks were meaningful leads anyway. There’s a big difference between “information-seeking” and “solution-seeking.”
While AI has reduced casual information searches, people still click when they’re actively seeking a service or solution. Those still convert. Partnerships, referrals, and direct outreach often outperform SEO for that reason. Traditional SEO tactics like authority building still matter but it’s now a long game. (25:50–28:35)

Mark: For many years, SEO was our bread and butter — especially from 2005 to around 2018. But now, it’s really just Google Ads that perform well at the bottom of the funnel. For top and mid-funnel leads, that’s no longer effective. (28:40–29:45)

Arlen: So shifting to where we are today, how do agencies nurture top-of-funnel relationships now? What works best moving forward? (29:50–30:30)

Jake: Content remains critical, but now it’s all about multi-channel strategy. Having multiple voices across platforms like LinkedIn, Pulse, directories, and trusted review sources strengthens both visibility and authority.
People will still use AI tools to search, but they’ll also rely more on trusted, human-curated sources — media outlets, niche sites, and newsletters. That’s why relationship-building, authenticity, and directories like Clutch are becoming key lead drivers. (30:35–33:05)

Mark: Until further notice, the order of the day is more humanity and more AI. Long-form, human-led multimedia content wins. Get key experts on camera — short clips, podcasts, articles — and let AI help repurpose and amplify it.
The website is no longer the starting point; engagement begins on social and streaming platforms. Your job now is to join the conversation where your audience already is. (33:10–36:20)

Arlen: So for a 25–50 person agency that’s just holding steady, what mindset and investments should they make to grow in the next few years? (36:25–37:50)

Jake: I would be first and foremost focused on the team shaping side of it — team expectations around where, in one year, we need to be to stay competitive in how we do projects.
Right now, prices haven’t yet dramatically changed across the board. Some clients and business still feel like they did a year or two ago — this is a key moment to create incentives and buy-in within your team to make a shift.
Speaking specifically from the engineering side: for any project we could have delivered without AI or these new tools, we should now encourage engineers to run at these tools fearlessly (with common-sense rules like “don’t upload PII”).
If they finish work faster, great — take that time to learn more. All I want is the story of how they did it as part of change management.
In a year or two, only agencies that know how to use these tools — where technical work costs a fraction of what it used to — will survive.
If you can make it through the next year with the clients you have, focus on getting your team ready to bid competitively. It’s not about making total deals cheaper, but ensuring some parts of your work cost less so you can reinvest elsewhere.
The real threat is not adapting — being left behind as costs drop and workflows evolve. (37:55–40:10)

Mark: I completely agree with that. That ties back to my opening comment about being worried. What Jake said — 100% agree.
Many firms will struggle with reinvention. For every hour they invest in marketing and biz dev, they must ensure their positioning and targeting are exactly right.
Generalist firms thrived before on local business and long relationships — those days are gone.
Whatever effort you put forth, take time to aim right before firing. “Spray and pray” doesn’t work anymore. Historically, aiming has been the hardest part for agencies because they fear missing opportunities by narrowing their market.
But now, you must get crystal clear on your focus — and do it quickly, because things are changing fast. (40:15–41:40)

Arlen: Focus is powerful. Go ahead, Jake. (41:45)

Jake: Focus is powerful, and I agree. TIM was built on focus.
The only nuance — especially for the tech side — is that some types of focus are now risky. Being “the expert” in one specific platform or tool can backfire because AI tools are removing that special advantage.
As a client once called it, that kind of specialization is like a priesthood — specialized knowledge that’s rapidly losing value.
So, I’d caution agencies against focusing only on being great at one software or technology. (41:50–42:40)

Mark: I’ve never been a fan of platform-based focus. You have no control over the platform’s future. Jake, you picked the right one at the right time and grew fast — that’s great — but many others weren’t so lucky.
Platform dependency is risky. Instead, focus on sectors or specific client needs. (42:45–43:05)

Arlen: As we look ahead, who are you reading, watching, following? Any sources that help people stay tuned into the agency and marketing space? (43:10–43:30)

Mark: The future of the agency space is being shaped by AI. Most of my reading now is AI-focused.
I highly recommend Azim Azhar’s “Exponential View” (his newsletter — the paid version is fantastic).
He’s thoughtful, unbiased, and communicates clearly.
For quick AI updates, The Neuron is a great daily newsletter — a bit light in tone, but strong content.
Also, Ethan Mollick from One Useful Thing — a Wharton professor and great thinker on marketing tech and AI.
Reading those three keeps me well-informed week to week on how trends are shifting. (43:35–44:40)

Arlen: Super. Jake, any recommendations — books, people, or sources shaping your perspective for the next few years? (44:45–44:50)

Jake: Honestly, not a great answer here. Mark’s list is excellent. I’m pretty scattered — I read a broad mix of classic news and AI-specific publications.
Right now, I’m more focused on execution and delivery than on long-term predictions. (44:55–45:25)

Mark: There’s also the economy — the global cycles and macro shifts. Jake said, “We ain’t seen nothing yet,” and I agree.
Huge world-order changes are coming in the next 20–24 months — globalization, trade, and structure are all shifting. These will deeply impact how we operate. (45:30–46:05)

Jake: Couldn’t agree more. I actually think it’s a waste of time to plan five years ahead right now — everything’s moving too fast.
This is another industrial revolution moment. We can’t predict 5–10 years out.
What matters is staying aware of current tools, analytics, and strategies — and avoiding paralysis from overanalyzing the future.
If you run an agency, get your team fully on board with AI adoption now. Learn the tools, stay agile, and move fast.
Those who don’t adapt will fall behind — but those who stay flexible and focused on the present will thrive. (46:10–47:50)

Mark: Yep — that’s a good note to end on. (47:55)

Arlen: So, Mark, what’s the best way for people to follow you and stay in touch? And then Jake? (48:00)

Mark: You can find me on LinkedIn — that’s the best place. Or on our website, newfangled.com. (48:05)

Arlen: I’ll have those links in the show notes. (48:10)

Jake: (laughing) It would’ve been hilarious if we had a different answer.

Mark: Yeah!

Jake: You should’ve said Facebook or something. Same story — LinkedIn’s the place to go. (48:15)

Mark: Yep.

Arlen: Excellent. Well, Mark and Jake, it’s been great having you on the podcast today and hearing your perspectives on the future of new business and the agency world at this pivotal moment of change.
As you both said, we can’t predict where we’ll be in five years — but we have some good signals for the next 12 to 24 months. Buckle your seatbelts — here we go. (48:20–48:40)

Mark: Here we go. Yeah. Thank you, Arlen. Jake, great to meet you. This was a lot of fun, and I appreciate the opportunity to be together. (48:45)

Jake: Likewise. (48:50)

Arlen: Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Agency Health Podcast.
You’ll find key takeaways and links for this episode in the show notes.
If you found this episode helpful, consider subscribing and sharing.
Take care and be well. (48:55–49:00)