[00:00:00] Arlen: Welcome to the Agency Health Podcast, where we dig deeper into [00:00:05] key agency health topics, the what, the why, and the how. Mining [00:00:10] actionable insights to help build a better firm. This episode is part of a [00:00:15] miniseries on new business, creating new client relationships, episodes cover [00:00:20] tactics, enabling your new business team, the future of new business, and where to start [00:00:25] today to improve your success. Today I'm joined by Aviral Mittal, director of [00:00:30] Marketing for rtCamp, an enterprise WordPress agency with clients like Penske [00:00:35] Media, Al Jazeera and Cox Automotive. Avi is a college dropout who [00:00:40] started his career in the nonprofit sector, moved to hospitality, and then embraced [00:00:45] entrepreneurship. Starting his own events company.

He now finds himself in [00:00:50] tech. So Avi, great to have you today. I'm really curious, how did you find [00:00:55] yourself in an agency marketing role? You've had a pretty broad spectrum of [00:01:00] experience in your career so far. 

[00:01:01] Mittal: Thanks Arlen for the, for the warm welcome. as [00:01:05] an agency marketing role, I think I, it was not planned. I would, I'd be honest [00:01:10] I joined rtCamp as a learning and development specialist, and this was a time [00:01:15] when most of the agencies were facing the problem of you know, supply and not [00:01:20] demand. This was the time at the peak of COVID to 2021 [00:01:25] when every agency was struggling to meet the demand because there were so many [00:01:30] clients, and they were, most agencies were probably, you know, letting [00:01:35] clients go or letting new, new accounts go because they didn't have the capacity. So that's when [00:01:40] I joined the you know, the learning and development department. In fact, that was when rtCamp was setting it [00:01:45] up. And in a few months, but I always wanted to join as a marketer. But at that time, [00:01:50] that was no one's priority. You know, but eventually I think things fell into place. I [00:01:55] moved to project management from project management. I got to learn a lot about WordPress, how the [00:02:00] agency works, how the projects are delivered, the tech side of things. And that really [00:02:05] sort of put me in good stead. To, to take up the marketing role [00:02:10] again. And that's, that's exactly what I did. So, because at some point we realized that [00:02:15] marketing was important and they found me with that interest and yeah, that's [00:02:20] how.

[00:02:20] Arlen: So you joined when the need was, was people and then over time the [00:02:25] pendulum swings and the need was more marketing and, and I think you had some background though, [00:02:30] right? From your experience in marketing in the past. Hence your interest in that from the beginning at RT [00:02:35] Camp.

[00:02:35] Mittal: Oh yes. So in fact, when I was working with hotels, when I was even in nonprofit, [00:02:40] the, the way of doing the outreach was always different. But I was always [00:02:45] into those roles where I was probably, bringing consensus in some [00:02:50] remote villages in India,or I was going to waste travel [00:02:55] agencies to sell the hotels that I was leading at that time. And then later on, even when I [00:03:00] did my own startup, While I was doing my own, you know, small events company, I was also [00:03:05] consulting for a startup as a marketer again.I never thought about that I'm doing marketing [00:03:10] because I never carried that designation per se. But when I look back I [00:03:15] realize that, oh yeah, I mean, I've always been doing some sort of scenes and marketing [00:03:20] my career, I think the biggest lesson for me would be, just go [00:03:25] live you know, and just focus on going live. Because I think you know, [00:03:30] especially because when I, as I said, like, you know, the, the agency was coming from a time [00:03:35] of too much demand that they could not fulfill. And then we were moving [00:03:40] into a space where demand would not be given, you'll have to work for [00:03:45] it. The attitudes were to change, you know, throughout the organization. And I think, the [00:03:50] attitudes that, that I found myself fighting with was that, we have to write a block piece. Okay, it'll take a [00:03:55] month. You know, and that, was the status quo.

 I would say that even I fell into that trap for [00:04:00] initial quarter or so. And then I think I had to really snap myself out of it [00:04:05] and then get into that zone of where we just prioritized going live [00:04:10] because I think that's, that's what builds momentum. And we could have probably built [00:04:15] momentum even sooner later.

[00:04:17] Arlen: And it sounds like going live really [00:04:20] as you see it is about putting things out there. You know, actually connecting with the [00:04:25] market with what you're doing so that you can get that feedback. You can see how people are responding. You can [00:04:30] learn faster. Is that what you mean by going live?

[00:04:32] Mittal: Actually it means everything. So even [00:04:35] even putting out an internal document, let's say some kind of a survey, some kind of [00:04:40] inputs, we would keep thinking that it needs to be perfect. We would keep thinking that it needs to be [00:04:45] polished, you know, that it needs to be a certain way. And I think if I compare that to [00:04:50] now, I'm so comfortable out something very rough. You know, because I [00:04:55] know that it's only when it's interacts, you know, when only when some kind of [00:05:00] interaction happens, then the thing grows, then the thing starts to get polished. you know, [00:05:05] not in my head or not in, not just by sitting on the document for, you know, for [00:05:10] weeks. 

[00:05:10] Arlen: Yeah,

I think that's a, a really common struggle that many of us have [00:05:15] to some degree or another, you know, shipping, putting things out. In front of other people whether internally, like you [00:05:20] said, or, or externally can be, can be really challenging, but we learn it [00:05:25] sharpens as we, we engage, we, we go live.

[00:05:30] And as, as you've been on this journey of marketing there, um. I think a, a key theme [00:05:35] that we've been talking about is enabling the marketing team the whole [00:05:40] organization, providing the marketing team with what it needs, the marketing team being set up in [00:05:45] a way that it can be effective. Tell me a little bit about your [00:05:50] journey.

of building the marketing team there at rtCamp and what you've been learning about [00:05:55] the structure that really seems to work well for you. 

[00:05:58] Mittal: When we started, I [00:06:00] had just one person and one junior writer with me, and then so we took [00:06:05] almost I'd say around nine months to feel that now we have a team in place that [00:06:10] can start to deliver. We were, because initially some of the hires also didn't work out, [00:06:15] and so we had to, there was some churn in the team and then we had to, it took some time to really put [00:06:20] together a team that would you know, that would meet our vision.

 So initially we were doing a lot of [00:06:25] experiments trying to put together as a team. So analytics was one part, [00:06:30] content was another. And then I think we were very clear that we wanted to get the content part [00:06:35] sorted multiple reasons. Not just because SEO is the right channel, but for multiple reasons, which we [00:06:40] can go into detail, you know, in some time. But I think putting together a team [00:06:45] was, again, it's super difficult for an agency like us to put [00:06:50] together a team the kind of skills that you're looking for are not readily available. Because what you're looking [00:06:55] for is someone who understands, let's say WordPress at least a bit, [00:07:00] uh, the ecosystem you know, how we position ourselves.

Of course, that can be [00:07:05] learned if you. If you're a marketer, but then how we position ourselves, the content [00:07:10] that was needed to be written, it was semi-technical and so initially when you're building the [00:07:15] team, you are also facing the challenge of having the larger buy-in because if you're a [00:07:20] growing department, people are busy with their own things and they're, you know, you have, you have to [00:07:25] create that by an inch by inch. And so I believe you need people [00:07:30] who can talk to engineers in a way that can ask the right questions to the engineers, to the [00:07:35] project managers, to people who have actually worked on projects. Because another philosophy that we were trying [00:07:40] to, Establish was that we don't want to talk or we don't want to write content, which was just coming out [00:07:45] of, you know, reading five other articles and putting together a summary [00:07:50] of ours, we wanted to, we wanted to write lived experience, what [00:07:55] we have done, what, what the kind of projects we have done, the kind of ideas we have [00:08:00] engaged with the kind of ideas we want to engage with. And so it has to come from our own [00:08:05] personality, our own lived experience and then

[00:08:08] Arlen: Yeah.

[00:08:08] Mittal: That is super hard for anyone [00:08:10] from outside to do. It was super hard and so while we were able to get some [00:08:15] hires from outside who could, who could still gel into this environment, who could, you [00:08:20] know, ramp up to it, but then eventually, thank God we had this learning and [00:08:25] development that was constantly hiring like 20, 30 folksevery six [00:08:30] months. And slowly we started putting out these internal job openings internal [00:08:35] job transfers. And so there were some great folks who were actually, who were [00:08:40] engineers, but they also wanted to do marketing, maybe do content, maybe do a little [00:08:45] bit of business development. Maybe they had like broader interests. And when they came into the [00:08:50] team we were, we also started this thing on growth engineering last year, for example. [00:08:55] We started formally hiring engineers, calling them growth engineers who [00:09:00] would be in charge of creating multiple proof of concepts exploring multiple [00:09:05] ideas, you know, gathering the kind of problems that we are solving across the projects and seeing [00:09:10] what we can, what more we can do in those areas. What can we build as proof of concept so that, [00:09:15] we can, we can actually talk more from firsthand experience. We did our own branding project [00:09:20] like we did, we did a t brandand for artCamp. Especially in terms of the website. And [00:09:25] then we had a lot of learnings from there, which we documented, put together and, you know, [00:09:30] created a handbook out of it, how to design for Gutenberg, for example.Because that comes from our [00:09:35] firsthand experience.

It, we see that it performs really well. It was a journey [00:09:40] wherein initially we thought we would be able to hire from outside. Slowly we realized that, you know, [00:09:45] internal hiring is much better and we have a large enough talent pool. And [00:09:50] so it worked out. But there is, there is still no answer that applies to probably, you know, every other [00:09:55] agency.

[00:09:55] Arlen: So it sounds like one of the key factors there was the challenge [00:10:00] of helping people who. Aren't already known to be a [00:10:05] fit for rtCamp and who don't already deeply understand what you're [00:10:10] doing that that maybe was harder to teach, you found [00:10:15] than teaching people some of the marketing skills that they might need to develop.

[00:10:19] Mittal: [00:10:20] Yeah, exactly. I mean, so we, we figured that it's, but it's easier to teach marketing to [00:10:25] engineers

[00:10:25] Arlen: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:26] Mittal: to marketers,

[00:10:27] Arlen: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:10:30] That resonates. And tell me about these guides. The, the handbook that you mentioned, these [00:10:35] longer form pieces that tell the story of, of how you do the work you do. 

[00:10:39] Mittal: [00:10:40] This list came out, because you wanted to write more comprehensively. We wanted to [00:10:45] have. A good rich resource library where, where [00:10:50] all the work that we do we could easily refer to. So for example, not just for [00:10:55] SEO purpose, especially when you're talking to a client on a, on a pre-sales call, we want to be [00:11:00] able to lead with our work and that, that has been like this, you know, [00:11:05] this constant thing at rtCamp that we don't call ourselves big talkers. we are very [00:11:10] shy in that sense. But I think we feel much more comfortable talking through our [00:11:15] work. And so we would rather build a, you know, a proof of [00:11:20] concept than to, you know, build a 20 page deck [00:11:25] to just talk about an idea. The moment you make things tangible people can experience, [00:11:30] can sort of touch it's, it, the idea gets conveyed much more effectively than to just [00:11:35] talk about it. And so therefore, and that's where the idea of handbook [00:11:40] also came from, that when we have something that, that is very tangible that we can share with [00:11:45] anyone when we're talking about it, it. gives us much more peace to [00:11:50] ourselves, you know, that okay, we have something substantial to say and that [00:11:55] therefore here it is.

So,

[00:11:56] Arlen: Yeah, and it, it's a, a proof of expertise I guess, if you can [00:12:00] create that longer form guide, teaching other people at least the what of, [00:12:05] of what you're doing. Maybe not all the how in great detail, but yeah. That, that [00:12:10] builds the confidence I imagine of, of people considering rtCamp.

[00:12:13] Mittal: I mean, in many cases, even the [00:12:15] how very transparently and rather generously put out [00:12:20] in many cases. And that's also coming from, you know, Rahul, our CEO who is [00:12:25] like, you know. let there be free knowledge. And you know, even if, even if someone wants to [00:12:30] take that handbook or a guide and want to work with another agency or with their [00:12:35] own internal team, it's fine. because we are still establishing a relationship with them that they will [00:12:40] still our, handbook to refer to. And maybe someday they feel like they can still come to [00:12:45] us and we can partner in some capacity, but even if not. It's good karma, [00:12:50] so,

[00:12:50] Arlen: It's creating goodwill and building the brand and, [00:12:55] reputation as experts in the space.

[00:12:56] Mittal: Yep.

[00:12:57] Arlen: In terms of collaboration across [00:13:00] departments. You've talked about how the marketing team has to engage with [00:13:05] the engineering team and, and the wider company to create this content that you're [00:13:10] building.

Tell me about some of the challenges and lessons that you've learned in that [00:13:15] collaboration across the company.

[00:13:16] Mittal: So cross company I imagine, and when I [00:13:20] talk to any other agency as well, I think it's a common challenge. You know, [00:13:25] especially marketing cans sort of feel siloed in, [00:13:30] in many cases. And it's very intentional. It needs to be [00:13:35] a process that is driven with a lot of intention from the top.

I feel, [00:13:40] especially if the agency has already spent like 10, 15 years in the market, and they get set in the ways and then [00:13:45] it's harder to change. So there

has to 

[00:13:46] Arlen: Yeah..

[00:13:46] Mittal: has to be a lot of push to be able to do that. Now, [00:13:50] how it is working out now, I think. This cross engineering [00:13:55] collaboration, I would say has only started working out in the past three to four months, because one, we have [00:14:00] McKinsey who is a, you know, VP of delivery I think, I believe she has worked with you in the

past. [00:14:05] 

[00:14:05] Arlen: Yep.

[00:14:06] Mittal: So when I took. This pain point to her that, you know, we have been [00:14:10] trying to collaborate with delivery, but then it's very difficult to things on [00:14:15] a specific deadline, on a specific cadence and then, you know, in a specific [00:14:20] quality. And then we were able to collaborate and she was able to put, put [00:14:25] together a place, you know, a, a process in place that we could provide some topics and we could get [00:14:30] some topics. In the form of a written article or a handbook or a guide. [00:14:35] So that has been working out really well so far. It took multiple [00:14:40] attempts to understand like how we can collaborate. We would start with [00:14:45] providing topics and then expecting some writeup, but then it will take too long or it'll not [00:14:50] be as expected. In that process I think what we also learned was that, to to give [00:14:55] more and more outlines, for example. 

[00:14:57] Arlen: Structure.

[00:14:58] Mittal: Yes, a lot more [00:15:00] structure. So not just the topic, but also who is going to be the audience? you know, what kind of tone we are [00:15:05] intending this in? What kind of outline, what are the key headings you want [00:15:10] to cover? And then still keeping it loose enough that, you know, whoever is a writer, they can bring [00:15:15] their own experience into that, into that writer. It's an acquired skill, I would say.

[00:15:19] Arlen: Yeah. [00:15:20] And in terms of process, you, you said you've been having. Some significant wins and progress over [00:15:25] the last few months. Are there other things that you've done besides that structure that you think have helped [00:15:30] make the process work better to get that collaboration?

[00:15:33] Mittal: Yeah. The other things are, [00:15:35] for example, in our team You know, having the right type of writers has been always a [00:15:40] challenge, but now we feel that now we have decent writers [00:15:45] and they're doing very well. Like, you know, so shifting a role to more of [00:15:50] more, more of reviewers just think of our senses. We have to write new content, new content, [00:15:55] no, but also to understand that, okay, outlining is probably more important than to [00:16:00] actually write. Then later on, when something is coming to us for review, [00:16:05] that that whole reviewer's mindset is more important. What really also helps [00:16:10] us is that we have created this detailed writing guidelines and I'd, I'd love to share [00:16:15] that document with you at some point because I feel it is one of the best [00:16:20] documents in business.

[00:16:22] Arlen: Yeah.

[00:16:22] Mittal: you know, if I can

[00:16:23] Arlen: Yeah.

[00:16:24] Mittal: that would be a [00:16:25] little cocky to say that, but I think it's a really well written document on how we want to write [00:16:30] now of course I, I know that there would be still gaps on what the actual output is and [00:16:35] what we, what that vision documents is, but I think it still lays out very good [00:16:40] direction for writers to follow.

[00:16:41] Arlen: Yeah. and it sounds like a big part of your success then [00:16:45] is just patient persistent effort because what I'm hearing is you, [00:16:50] you hit a challenge and instead of giving up on that, whether that be finding [00:16:55] good people for the marketing team. you keep moving ahead.

You try more people you [00:17:00] learn and you get there. I, I think what I've seen a lot of marketing teams [00:17:05] do is, is spinning their wheels for a long time. Either they, they keep working with [00:17:10] people that will probably never be the right match for that particular seat. [00:17:15] Maybe they would excel in a different agency in the marketing seat. Right? But they're, they're just not a match for where they [00:17:20] are or maybe the person is right, but the direction they're getting, the support they're getting, the [00:17:25] enablement they have is, is not what they need. And so I'm, I'm hearing you [00:17:30] describing a process of a lot of iteration, a lot of patience, a willingness to keep [00:17:35] trying new things over and over until you make that progress.

[00:17:38] Mittal: Absolutely. In fact, I think [00:17:40] that's a great point and it reminds me of how. So initially, like if, if a candidate was [00:17:45] not the right fit, like we would probably end up hiring them, that they're not the right [00:17:50] fit. We would still try to, you know, drag them for another quarter. But then, you know, [00:17:55] you know, I'm not sure if that is the right way to put it, but I think, I think it's still not [00:18:00] fair to both the parties to, to drag anyone where they don't belong, I feel. [00:18:05] And I think that was a lesson we learned in the first year and then we were very, [00:18:10] very intense. So I think another way of onboarding people was that, [00:18:15] if you give people week to read through stuff, to, to, you know, [00:18:20] read through internal chat Slack channels, you know, some handbooks, et cetera. [00:18:25] it doesn't work. I think they need to, they need to have that [00:18:30] first few weeks have to be intense and what I started doing was that I would, one, [00:18:35] I would set up this one hour meeting every day with them, the moment they join.

So. [00:18:40] First couple of days could be like HR, formalities, whatever. But then after that, [00:18:45] they're actually just writing the block. They're actually just writing the content, [00:18:50] the, you know, or they're managing the social or doing whatever. But anything that needs [00:18:55] to go live. To be engaged with them in that process so that we are able to see how [00:19:00] they're thinking what kind of questions they're asking, what kind of you know, what kind of thoughts they're [00:19:05] bringing to the table. Because no matter how good an interview is, this is where, [00:19:10] you know, the rubber meets the road and you're actually able to, in most cases, one is [00:19:15] able to get a sense of where this is going in the first two weeks. And you know, [00:19:20] after that I would still, like, if, if I'm still feeling very dary about someone, I would probably still [00:19:25] give it another month maximum. But then we would take a decision here or[00:19:30] 

[00:19:30] Arlen: Make a decision. Yeah.

And I think that's, that ends up being fair to [00:19:35] them as well, because if we are not the right fit for them, you know, they're just [00:19:40] wasting their time. They're not growing in their career, they're not learning new things.Really [00:19:45] valuable, hard won advice there. Thinking about the tactics that are at the [00:19:50] center of your playbook, you've been talking a lot about content development and, and [00:19:55] content clearly plays a big role in your marketing strategy. Tell me a little bit more about [00:20:00] that how you see content development fitting into your overall marketing [00:20:05] strategy.

[00:20:05] Mittal: When I joined the marketing department, I think our, our default way of [00:20:10] understanding marketing was that write content. So we never really questioned it. So that's where it [00:20:15] started. We were even slightly averse to SEO because we felt that, you know, [00:20:20] if we write the right content, we will get the right, which I still agree with to some extent, but I [00:20:25] still feel that. Even when you're writing the right content, you can still align that with SEO a [00:20:30] little bit not in terms of keyword stuffing, et cetera, but to really align with what people are really searching [00:20:35] forbut I think in the larger context of things, there is a lot of buzz right now. that SEO is [00:20:40] dying, you know, because of AI views, you know, you not [00:20:45] get enough clicks on even if you're ranking in the top three. You know, all of that. [00:20:50] So, however, not seeing content in that light entirely. [00:20:55] So yes, it is important for us to be seen. I'm not saying that, we don't want to do [00:21:00] that at all. However, I feel content is a part of broaden strategy,Not [00:21:05] just as SEO strategy, but also I said, like, having a pre-sale [00:21:10] strategy. So the fact that you have written expert content various concerns [00:21:15] regarding WordPress development. it shines through, you know, when people interact with us it, [00:21:20] it makes our conversations much easier. and right now, like even, even the fact [00:21:25] that we are now starting to appear in a lot of AI surface, like on ChatGPT Now [00:21:30] we, we have actually closed leads from publicity ChatGPT. So that, [00:21:35] that too is happening. And I think that's, one part of it. However, there is [00:21:40] also. There's also North Star that we are seeking. Is, is where, know, your, your [00:21:45] question about collaboration with the larger team is also coming, comes into place, is [00:21:50] about a thought leadership. so at rtCamp has been traditionally, historically doing [00:21:55] phenomenal engineering work building phenomenal solutions clients like Google [00:22:00] pen scan media know, Cox Automotive, whatnot.

 As I said, we have always been [00:22:05] shy. We've never really spoken about them in detail. I think that is, that is something we are [00:22:10] still trying to change, getting more people out there speaking, whether through [00:22:15] their socials, whether in events you know, as speakers, whether, appearing on [00:22:20] webinars with fellow agencies, fellow engineers, fellow, you know, partners in the hosting [00:22:25] space or in plugin space, or in whatever space. So, I think that's,that's what we want [00:22:30] to do more of. But, you know, again, it's a, it's a thing about breaking some [00:22:35] habits and building new ones.

[00:22:36] Arlen: so it sounds like content development sort of sits [00:22:40] at, I dunno if saying the core is quite right, but in, in terms of the [00:22:45] content that the whole company to some degree is helping develop, provides [00:22:50] the seeds for a lot of other things, you know, the, the soil for a lot of other marketing [00:22:55] to grow in.

Whether that particular piece is getting a lot of search traffic or, [00:23:00] chat bot traffic or not, it still can be really valuable in [00:23:05] sharpening the thinking of the team, in providing value to prospects who find you some other [00:23:10] way, building their trust. tell me about opportunity based marketing. 'cause we were talking about that [00:23:15] and I think this probably fits in, you know, how does your content development flow into opportunity [00:23:20] marketing and, and what even is opportunity based marketing?

[00:23:23] Mittal: I think account [00:23:25] based marketing is, is a more popular term in in marketing circles where [00:23:30] you sort of have a list of accounts that you wanna target, and you keep going after [00:23:35] them throughout the year or quarter or, you know, however that looks like. Opportunity based [00:23:40] marketing is something that, that was a rabbit hole we went into, and especially when we started marketing, [00:23:45] like, you know, the content started ramping up much later. We spent like good [00:23:50] few months just going into this rabbit hole of personalization, customer [00:23:55] data platforms, sort of thing. And what we realize that, [00:24:00] it's so much more to understand who is actually [00:24:05] visiting your website. Understand, especially in the B2B context, like who, [00:24:10] who is, what kind of accounts are already interacting with you on your website, on [00:24:15] your socials, on your emails. On your videos, wherever. And there are tools that [00:24:20] without revealing personally identifiable information, you're [00:24:25] still able to understand the accounts, like which companies are actually interested, in your services, and [00:24:30] then. To be able to understand and score all those interactions, to be able [00:24:35] to sort of segment out people who are, who are showing much higher intent [00:24:40] and to be able to then interact with them, because then they're much more relevant. [00:24:45] They, they, they're already familiar with your brand. they're probably still looking for a solution. To [00:24:50] build a system around this rather simple sounding philosophy, but, it [00:24:55] needs a whole suite of tools to come together.

[00:24:58] Arlen: Yeah.

[00:24:58] Mittal: a lot of data to come [00:25:00] together and to be able to, and, you know, really seeing your website is the first party [00:25:05] data source, which you completely own. And building your strategy [00:25:10] from there to be able to reach out to these very relevant accounts. Through multiple channels, three [00:25:15] means through socials, through, through paid channels, through [00:25:20] in person, through events. And this has been one of the most valuable [00:25:25] learning that is actually, we're still like working very deeply into this [00:25:30] space. And you know, we are already like consulting a lot of our clients [00:25:35] now in this space as well because. By doing it for ourselves, we learned it so well that [00:25:40] we feel that we are now ready to offer this as a consultancy to many more [00:25:45] people.

[00:25:45] Arlen: No, that sounds, I mean, really powerful that they always say a small percentage [00:25:50] and, and it. Makes sense mathematically, right? A small percentage of the market is buying [00:25:55] Now depending on what business you're in, maybe that's 3% or whatever. You know, you [00:26:00] can, can do the math by, by saying how frequently does a given company buy that [00:26:05] service?

And you know, work it out for what you're selling. But I [00:26:10] tend to focus internally on, okay, I wanna build relationships with the [00:26:15] 97%. Um, Sure the 3%, but the 97% play that long [00:26:20] game ABM and I think there is a lot of value there, but of course, you wanna [00:26:25] play well in that 3% category. And, and what you're describing is, is allowing [00:26:30] you to do that.

Are there any pieces of, of advice you'd give people who are wanting to [00:26:35] dig deeper into that opportunity based marketing understanding intent better for what they're [00:26:40] selling. Have you put out any guides on this or do you have any resources that you would recommend people [00:26:45] take a look at?

[00:26:46] Mittal: Yes, we do have, a guide on it available online, on our [00:26:50] website, however that is. I would still call it a work in progress

[00:26:54] Arlen: Yeah.

[00:26:54] Mittal: a [00:26:55] lot more that we can write there. However, I think this is, especially for, you know, B2B [00:27:00] teams, even for B2C teams actually. I think this whole thing needs to be [00:27:05] understood decently well because it's not just a marketing problem. it's, a very, [00:27:10] very intertwined technical and marketing challenge wherein you need to [00:27:15] understand the tool very well, how they're structured how the data is being processed, how the data is [00:27:20] being stored, how the data is being fetched, and then what kind of slicing and [00:27:25] dicing you can do on top of it. To be able to understand, you know, your audience [00:27:30] deeply and, and create segments out of it. I think one of the biggest learnings for [00:27:35] us was to, to be able to really get to a point where you can actually get the right segments [00:27:40] for you. And those segments are not like. It sounds obvious that [00:27:45] any customer data platform will give you the right segment, right? butit's only when you start working [00:27:50] through it, you realize that, oh, you don't have those exclusion rules here, or this data you [00:27:55] cannot exclude or include in your segment.

[00:27:57] Arlen: Yes. Yeah. I've found this so [00:28:00] frustrating with LinkedIn, you know, trying to to drill down to segments that are relevant to a [00:28:05] particular business. Yeah, they have lots of segmenting, but it may not match up at all with your [00:28:10] ICP.

[00:28:10] Mittal: Exactly, and so I think my most important advice would be [00:28:15] that do not overlook the segmenting. Figure out what kind of [00:28:20] segmenting you need for your business because there are so many signals you can capture, and those could be very, [00:28:25] very niche signals, but you might still need them for your business.

And if, if that [00:28:30] segmenting is not happening with any tool, do not go for it.

[00:28:32] Arlen: So once you identify someone with [00:28:35] intent potential intent anyway, you, you identify that engaged [00:28:40] account. What next, what do you do at that point? I.

[00:28:44] Mittal: So it really [00:28:45] depends.You know, you can segment based on, like, if someone has spent like more than five minutes or like 10 minutes [00:28:50] on your website, maybe they're really looking for a solution. Maybe they're really going deep into [00:28:55] something. You can actually write them a cold email or reach, say hi on LinkedIn and [00:29:00] just, you know, just directly reach out if people are just, you know, [00:29:05] browsing through your content and. Relevant content. then I think we also figure [00:29:10] out, we try to figure out what kind of technologies they are already using, [00:29:15] whether they're already on WordPress or on some other CMS. So we try to, [00:29:20] sort of guess their intent. And there are of course, ways to put that into segmentation as [00:29:25] well, should I talk to them about migration or should I talk to them about maintenance or new development.

[00:29:29] Arlen: [00:29:30] Yeah.

[00:29:30] Mittal: So you know that kind of segment again, then you can decide whether you want to do Some kind of a drip [00:29:35] campaign or a big campaign with them to be able to, you know, [00:29:40] encourage them to interact with your brand again, to remind that they were here and then [00:29:45] they might want to still interact a little more and, want to talk to [00:29:50] us.

[00:29:51] Arlen: So essentially you're identifying where are they in the buyer's journey [00:29:55] and what services might be relevant to them as best you can, and then [00:30:00] deploying your, your tool set there to nudge them a little bit [00:30:05] along. If, if they're far along in the buyer's journey it might be a direct outreach. If they're [00:30:10] earlier, maybe it's some softer nudges to kind of help move them along a little bit.

 are there any other [00:30:15] channels you, you talk about, you know, content and using that through your website and, [00:30:20] and opportunity based marketing. Are there any other channels that have felt really important [00:30:25] to your marketing traction? I know we mentioned partnerships and events, but anything else that [00:30:30] comes to mind that you would say, here's a place you spent quite a lot of time and effort [00:30:35] and you're seeing some, some really positive results.

[00:30:37] Mittal: So lately there has been events I [00:30:40] would've said social as well. but I think lately there has been events because a lot can [00:30:45] happen with events in a very condensed timeframe and especially if you're choosing the right kind of [00:30:50] events. So, we are sort of staying away from very large events.

We are trying to [00:30:55] go more towards more intimate events, kind of a space.

[00:30:59] Arlen: Yeah.[00:31:00] 

[00:31:00] Mittal: and, you know, that's where we find most value because we can have more direct [00:31:05] conversations, and also the audience can be much more curated for the kind of folks that we want to [00:31:10] meet. And I think that's, that's where a lot of our energy budget, our time is [00:31:15] going. The way we investors, that we really, we really try to personalize [00:31:20] the outreach even during the event. So like there is, you know, our teams are sitting and [00:31:25] creating sheets, upper sheets, researching those accounts, researching those people, [00:31:30] and then understanding like how to reach out to them, what to talk to them, what could be of their [00:31:35] interest.

And of course, that's one way of doing it. I mean, that's, that's what we still do. [00:31:40] But at the same time, we are also very mindful that, with events, we are also building a lot of long-term [00:31:45] relationships. So it's not just, it's not just, you know, we have to close the lead today. We met someone [00:31:50] yesterday. No. But it also helps us build more relationships, you know, build [00:31:55] more, uh, opportunities to, run into into each other more often.

[00:31:59] Arlen: Yeah. So they [00:32:00] see you as a stable part of their world, even if they're not a customer [00:32:05] yet. rtCamp is always here. You become top of mind. There's, there's a trust that [00:32:10] develops and yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. In, in my experience with events, [00:32:15] and I know some companies talk about a lot of direct sales that that come out of events, but in general, [00:32:20] it seems like it is much more about building that long tail of relationships and. [00:32:25] And, and much less about the direct sale.

So, both are good. And, and I resonate as [00:32:30] well with what you said about the smaller, more intimate events being more valuable, more opportunity to, [00:32:35] to connect on that personal level. And at the big events, trying to make it small. You know, [00:32:40] people always talk about the hallway track and, and finding those smaller settings at the bigger events [00:32:45] to build the relationships.

[00:32:47] Mittal: What would be your experience there, like in the [00:32:50] events? Like what would you find most valuable? What does the, what does daily [00:32:55] cycle look like from events typically?

[00:32:58] Arlen: Yeah, so I'm not a big event [00:33:00] guy, but I have done quite a few events. I like smaller, intimate settings. I like [00:33:05] this, right? Uh, One-on-one is probably my, my favorite or, or leading a group I. [00:33:10] But yeah, I, I would say, I find more value in either [00:33:15] having someone speaking so that you have that presence and and you're [00:33:20] seen, your company is seen as an expert on a relevant topic to your ICP [00:33:25] at a good event.

That's not always possible but then, you know, identifying [00:33:30] who's gonna be at the event. And knowing in advance as you described, you know, you [00:33:35] understand those people. You even try to make a connection with them ahead of the event. Try to set up a [00:33:40] time to meet, to connect, these are not really novel tactics, right?

[00:33:45] It, it really is relationship building one-on-one. But where I see [00:33:50] people failing is, is really not being disciplined and doing their [00:33:55] homework and not following through. You know, you go to an event and you have all these great conversations and you have a [00:34:00] list of 20 people, and then two months later nothing's been done with that list [00:34:05] of, of 20 people and conversations to carry forward.

I think timing is really important. So the [00:34:10] very next week, you know, carrying those conversations on and they, they won't all be [00:34:15] warm, but they're gonna be a lot warmer a week later than they will be in two months. [00:34:20] So, yeah, if, if you're gonna bother investing in an event go, go all the way. So to [00:34:25] wrap up today, if you are giving some advice to, to your boss [00:34:30] but, but put yourself in the shoes of, of someone else in the, another agency, maybe maybe [00:34:35] with a leader who's less, less enlightened. A marketing team that could use some more [00:34:40] support. Yeah. What, what advice would you give to agency leaders to better enable their [00:34:45] marketing teams, to give them the tools, the support they need [00:34:50] to, to succeed?

What has helped you and what might really help others from the outside looking [00:34:55] into the marketing team?

[00:34:56] Mittal: I'd find it really difficult to talk about what could work [00:35:00] for others but I think I would assume from my own experience that [00:35:05] especially anyone who is leading the marketing department, they need to be extremely high agency [00:35:10] individuals. They need to be setting their own goals.

They need to be, defining [00:35:15] and communicating constantly what they are calling success. And of [00:35:20] course, you know, collaborating with the top leadership as well, very, very [00:35:25] frequently. Especially if I starting marketing from scratch, you need a lot of buy-in and [00:35:30] you need to constantly communicate progress to keep getting that buy-in[00:35:35] 

[00:35:35] Arlen: Mm.

[00:35:35] Mittal: to go for another few months of making that same effort, even when it is probably not [00:35:40] creating any tangible results as of now.

But you can see that, but you know, [00:35:45] not everyone can see that. And so you, it's your job to also. put that in front of everyone that okay, you [00:35:50] know, these are the kind of progress that we're seeing.

[00:35:52] Arlen: Yeah.

[00:35:52] Mittal: This is what we'd expect, but you know, it'll still take this much [00:35:55] time.

[00:35:55] Arlen: Yeah.

[00:35:56] Mittal: so that communication, I think is very important.

So I think [00:36:00] anyone who is leading has to be an extremely high agency individual, have to be [00:36:05] rather opinionated, rather strong headed. I can't [00:36:10] imagine this working out any other way.

[00:36:12] Arlen: So it sounds like you, what you would say is give [00:36:15] your marketing leader room to set a strategy and to [00:36:20] define success and to set the goals and, and expect that of them. You know, [00:36:25] encourage them to do that rather than dictating to them what those things are. [00:36:30] And if, if they're not the right person to do that, if they're not someone who can step into [00:36:35] that and you know, have a clear idea of what the strategy should be, where you [00:36:40] should go and why and how to measure that, then maybe they're not the right leader for, for marketing.[00:36:45] 

Maybe you need someone else.

[00:36:46] Mittal: Yeah, if they're taking dictation, then they're not the right person probably.

[00:36:49] Arlen: Mm. [00:36:50] Yeah, maybe another seed could be good. And like we described earlier in the call, there is [00:36:55] somewhere where they can serve well, but the sooner you find out that maybe this person isn't [00:37:00] right the better everyone can, can proceed from there. So, yeah. [00:37:05] And looking ahead, whether it's personally Avi or, with the projects you're working on at RT [00:37:10] camp, what, what are you most excited about for the rest of 2025?

[00:37:14] Mittal: I think we [00:37:15] have got a lot of very good things in motion. I'm particularly excited about our [00:37:20] collaboration with sales because, in ABM, basically your sales and marketing has to [00:37:25] be one demand team, and that, that too is happening to a large extent, [00:37:30] and I'm super excited about that because I feel that if we keep doing that, [00:37:35] we will, create a lot of results.

[00:37:37] Arlen: Hmm. Fantastic. Yeah, that, [00:37:40] that synergy all the way as you described from sales, marketing, [00:37:45] delivery, everybody playing together a lot better makes a world of difference. Well, it's been a pleasure to [00:37:50] chat. Thanks for taking the time today, Avi, to, to join me.

[00:37:53] Mittal: The pleasure was all mine, [00:37:55] Arlen. Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:37:58] Arlen: And thank you for joining us for this [00:38:00] episode of the Agency Health Podcast. You'll find key takeaways from the [00:38:05] conversation and links for this episode in the show notes. If you found this episode valuable, [00:38:10] consider subscribing and sharing. Take care, and be well.