Arlen: 0:03

Welcome to the Agency Health Podcast, where we dig deeper into key agency health topics, the what, why, and how, mining actionable insights to build a better firm. This episode is part of a mini series on beginning with the end in mind. As we'll find, building for your exit from the start helps create a thriving agency that delivers great value for you. Your team, and your clients. On this episode, I'm talking to Sarah Durham of Compton Durham, as she shares her story and compares her experiences selling two firms. Sarah started Big Duck early in her career, leading it for over 27 years. She purchased Advomatic two years before selling both firms. One, via a merger, and another, via a worker owned co op. Now, as an advisor and ICF credentialed coach, Sarah supports directors and owners at the apex of their leadership journey. Super excited to be chatting with you today, Sarah, and hearing a bit more about a tale of, of two agencies. There's certainly more to your story that we'll get into. As we think about beginning with the end in mind, and how to set yourself up for Uh, a close to your experience with an agency. It's great to hear from the experience of people who have been through that process. And you have a couple of great experiences to share today. Maybe frame that in a little bit, uh, you shared with me in our conversation previously about 10 years and how, how you decided that you wanted to move towards a 10 year milestone a while back.

Sarah: 1:41

Okay. Well, first of all, thanks for having me, Arlen. It's fun to be here. I did not begin Big Duck, the agency I founded, with the end in mind. Like most agency owners, I just jumped into doing what seemed like fun or interesting. I started the business in my mid twenties. And around the time I turned 40, I started thinking about the future. It was a year of real reflection for a whole host of reasons. I realized that I had this goal to have another career or do other things. I did not want to spend my whole career running this company. So at about the age of 40, I set the intention to sell my business in 10 years, like to exit my business around the age of 50. It just seemed like a good time. Seemed like an age at which you could go on and do lots of other things. So about 10 years in advance, I set that intention. I didn't know if I would actually do it. But as I know, You've probably talked to a lot of people about, you know, running your business so that you can ultimately sell it is just running your business well, it didn't commit me to selling my business. It just gave me a way to think about management. And then during those 10 years, I worked with my team internally to try to set up the business to be high functioning without me being intrinsic to it. And along the way, I bought a second agency. And ran that for a while, but that agency, which is called or was called Advomatic, I did go into that acquisition, having a particular goal of exiting it in a couple of years.

Arlen: 3:15

Let's dig into Advomatic a little bit. I mean, you already have Big Duck that you've been building for. Uh, a few decades at this point. Right. With Amatic when it came onto the scene. Yeah. How did Amatic come into the picture? What got you interested in that?

Sarah: 3:28

So, big Duck has a lot of partners, a lot of other agencies that it collaborates on. So, big Duck works exclusively with nonprofits. Depending on what the nonprofit needs, they might bring in a, a different, a different partner to complement some of the things that Big Duck does. And Amatic was a partner. The owner of Advomatic was looking to exit. Somebody in the agency reached out to me and said, do you know anybody who might be interested? I was at a point where I had let go of a lot of my day to day responsibilities in Big Duck. I had taken a sabbatical and all that was great, but I was kind of like, what am I doing? I felt almost like I was getting more in the way at Big Duck than. Being helpful. So it was really opportunistic. I just thought, Okay, maybe I'll buy Advomatic. That'll give me a new thing to sink my teeth into and new challenge. And then hopefully the two businesses will be kind of synergistic in interesting ways. So that was the impetus.

Arlen: 4:23

Did you think at that point about them being rolled together in a pretty direct way? Was that a possibility?

Sarah: 4:30

It was a possibility. It felt to me like there were probably three scenarios. One scenario was the two agencies would come together into one larger agency. Another was that maybe my next chapter would be some sort of holding company or a network of agencies. Another possibility was I would exit Big Duck. So I was on the journey for about two years thinking about all those. And then I think by the end of 2020, in part because of just what kind of year 2020 was, I decided I really want to Exit this agency racket. Go do something totally different. So I sold both businesses in 2021. I sold Big Duck to my employees and it became a worker owned cooperative. So it's still around today doing that. And I serve on the board for Big Duck. And then I sold Advomatic to an incredible digital agency called Four Kitchens. And I exited both businesses.

Arlen: 5:27

And can you tell me about some of the genesis of that decision? Because when you have all those options on the table, you're considering the holding company, really doubling down on one of those, selling them individually, a lot of possibilities. What led you to that decision of selling both of them? So what was the process you went through considering that?

Sarah: 5:45

So as you know, but maybe your listeners don't yet know, I now work as an executive coach and I do a lot of coaching in the agency world. And you know, I think it's, I think one of the reasons that a lot of people don't exit their business, and I'm saying this wearing my coaching hat, is that sometimes you're not really clear what's next for you. You have this identity that's bound up in your work. And so. Maybe you do want to do some other things, but you're not sure what those things are, and you're just so, I, I, I was certainly very intertwined with Big Doc. So for me, a lot of the question was, want to do next? Or who am I if I am not an agency owner? How do I find purpose? In my life, what kind of role does work play in my life if I'm not an agency owner? These were all questions I was grappling with and working on. It became clear how to move forward once I started to have a clearer idea of what I wanted my, the final chapter of my career to look like, how I wanted to spend my time.

Arlen: 6:45

And so once you had that vision, it was a lot clearer. What do I do with these agencies? How do I set them on a good path? But with you outside of them then, because what you wanted to do was to impact more agencies, more leaders.

Sarah: 6:58

Yeah, exactly. I have two daughters who are about to turn 21, they're twins, and it's really not unlike being a parent in that you try to launch these functional adults into the world. As an agency owner, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted both of these businesses and the people in them, particularly, really, it was about the people who worked in them, to move on to another chapter that would be better for them, that they'd be launching into something better. But I couldn't imagine how to do that until I felt confident that I was launching myself into another chapter that I would be excited about. And, you know, and then the pieces come together. I mean, you know, the advermatic process being, you know, selling your agency to another agency or some other for profit business is extremely different from the process of going through a conversion to becoming a co op. So the two processes were totally different. Both fascinating and made me actually surprisingly excited about mergers and acquisitions for nonprofit focused organizations or businesses and yeah, turned out to be really kind of fun.

Arlen: 8:06

Yeah, and both in the same year. So you probably had a lot of opportunity to think about the differences from those experiences. And maybe it'd be good to unpack that starting with Advomatic. And I think that sale happened. Relatively quickly, right, to move ahead with that.

Sarah: 8:21

Yeah, it did. That was a very quick process. I think from start to finish, it was less than six months. And I was very lucky in the timing of when I was trying to sell Advomatic. There was a real shortage of developers. We had a great technical team. And so there were a lot of agencies interested in acquiring Advomatic. It had great services that were useful for them, but also this great team. I think there were actually nine agencies interested in acquiring Advomatic. The first phase of that deal was really just trying to figure out who was going to be the best fit for me as the exiting owner, but also, most importantly, for the staff to transition to an agency that they were going to be excited to work in. Advomatic was a great business that had been around for a long time before I bought it, and I felt really a lot of responsibility to kind of shepherd it. Well, there are a lot of accountants and lawyers, but I was really fortunate and deliberate to choose 4Kitchens as a partner because Todd, who is the owner of 4Kitchens, is just a great, a great person and a great business leader. So it was really easy to work with him and to figure out how to do the deal.

Arlen: 9:30

I noticed several years later that there's still a number of people from Advomatic at 4Kitchens and it seems like. That's been a positive experience. Can you just tell me a little bit about the decision factors when you have nine Agencies that you're looking at initially what went into helping you decide what path to go? What were some of the key criteria for you?

Sarah: 9:52

Yeah for that part of the deal to try to winnow it down I had a consultant who was helping me who was an M& A expert who helped me a little bit sort of design a process that was intended to not be too arduous for the potential buyers or for me, but I mean, a lot of it really came down to culture, values, is there alignment between what we at Advomatic are like and what this agency is like and what they're trying to do. So that was a big piece of it. The co op conversion process is entirely different, though. In the coaching work I do now, I talk to a lot of business owners about it. What that is like. I think a lot of business owners are intrigued by co ops, ESOPs, employee trusts, because those are all forms where workers can own the business. In some way, that's not just a private ownership in that case. We right brought in a consulting group called the ICA group, which is in and of itself a nonprofit, but they help small businesses with the conversion process. They guided us through feasibility, the transition. And continue to work with Big Duck afterwards. They were terrific. I highly recommend that agency owners listening to your podcast who are thinking about the co op process check out ICA Group. They're a great partner.

Arlen: 11:09

Excellent. I do think you said that process took maybe a year to transition and was not only different, but maybe a bit more involved. Tell, tell me more about that process and what someone should expect if they're considering a worker cooperative.

Sarah: 11:22

Yeah, well, the first part of any deal is valuation and some soul searching on behalf of the owner. So you, as the owner, have to think about what makes it worth your while to exit and what are your priorities in exiting. In a valuation process, whoever you are working with, it could be your accountant, it could be a consultant. There are a lot of people who do valuations. You're really just looking at what is this business actually worth and, you know, usually that's some kind of multiplier of EBITDA. But there's also this bigger question of what is it worth to you as the owner to sell? Do you want to continue to be involved? For how long? How much money do you need to make in this deal? So there's a lot of those kinds of issues. With the conversion to become a co op specifically, the feasibility phase includes valuation and some of those conversations. But it also includes some examination of will this business work as a co op? Does it have people who would want to buy in and be worker owners? Will the transition, you know, to a governance model make sense with the culture of this business? And, and then what would the exiting owners role be? So we had a three or four month feasibility phase, which was very quiet. Only a couple of people in the business knew it was happening. Once we felt confident that the business had. the right ingredients to become a co op, then we started talking to people about it. And as we started talking to people, we were really assessing, is there enough mojo here from the people who would be the owners? The answer to that was an unequivocal yes. When we converted to the co op, I think, I think almost everybody, maybe minus one or two people bought in and became worker owners at the point of conversion, which was great.

Arlen: 13:07

And so it sounds like the key ingredient there, I mean, Worker cooperative, right? The key is that the people have the right interest and skills and preparedness to be part of that. What are some of those key boxes that the team needs to check for a worker cooperative to function?

Sarah: 13:26

Well, I think in any business where You know, in most agencies, you have a founder or founders or partners, and they make a lot of decisions. And in any business that is going to have those people exiting, there has to be other people who are leaders, other people who make decisions, a process for things happening that doesn't involve the owners or the people who run the business. So, of course, that is, that is essential in a co op, too. You have to have people who are leaders, who Are already making decisions already doing a job able to work autonomously that that's a big part of it. But in addition to that, with a co op, there is a governance model where you have a board of directors. The business is run by directors, but then there is a board, and they all have different levels of responsibility. People who work in the business have to want to be involved with how the business is run, what policies happen, and how decisions get made. They have to be willing to learn how all that works and take on new roles. And then downstream, there has to be an appetite for Running the business and looking out for the interests of the business, not just the interest of the, of the employee.

Arlen: 14:40

And how does that compare to a management buyout and what that experience might be like where you have, say, a couple of people, two or three people who want to be partners in the new season of the business and how that looks different than a worker cooperative?

Sarah: 14:58

Well, I think when you sell your business privately in a management buyout where the owner is exiting, it's to some extent a handoff. I mean, when I sold Advomatic to Four Kitchens, I was passing the baton of ownership or leadership to Todd and his team. In some ways, that is simpler because if an employee is used to working for you and they are told you're leaving, but here's their new and they believe in their vision, then they're just kind of moving over their role as an employee with the kinds of responsibilities, a typical employee has, probably won't change in a co op. It's really just a complete re architecturing of how decisions get made. And there is a real learning curve in that. I think I've heard this from a lot of other people. I know I've been through the co op conversion process, it takes a while to figure out if you're not just going to the boss and saying, okay, what are we going to do about this to figure out who do you go to? How does that work? You know, what is a group decision? What is a director decision? That takes some time.

Arlen: 16:10

I mean, not just a change, but a system of governance that may be less familiar to people altogether. Exactly. Yeah. And if we were to talk to the team now, a few years in, what do you think? The worker owners at Big Duck would say about that experience three years into the journey.

Sarah: 16:28

I've talked with them quite a bit about it. The year of conversion. It was full of learning, full of growth. Sometimes that was very challenging. Sometimes a lot of fun. It just, you know, it took time. It took energy. Now, I think three years in, there is much more clarity. Among all the worker owners about how it works. I mean, I think one of the things that takes a while to get used to when you work in a co op is that you are still an employee. There are certain things that have not changed, and then there are other things that have changed. So now the team would say they have much more clarity on what the responsibilities of ownership look like. I think the team is much more clear on how to run the business, how to be managers, and frankly, from where I sit on the board, I'm really proud of them because I've seen people who I worked with when I was in the business step into all kinds of new leadership roles. It's very cool to see people.

Arlen: 17:34

So if you were to go back 10 years before the sale of Big Duck, are there any things that you would do differently in that 10 year period now that, you know, the sale was in the form of worker cooperative?

Sarah: 17:46

I mean, when I set the intention to sell the business, I didn't have a particular idea in mind of how that would work. I didn't. At age 40, say when I'm 50, I want this to become a co op. I just knew I wanted to exit and that I need it financially to extract some money out of that deal. But when I think back on it. I wouldn't do anything differently. I was very fortunate because I had two people who worked in the business at that point, Elizabeth Ricca and Farrah Trumpeter, who had already become great advisors to me, great leaders in the company. I brought them into that goal very early on, and they were really helpful, both in helping figure out the path, But also in being leaders in the business and when we went through the co op conversion process, the two of them were co directors of the business. One of the ingredients I think I really benefited from that is a struggle for many agencies is I already had these incredible leaders right there who are very committed to the business, very committed to helping me do what I wanted, and that was just great. I'm really thankful to both of them. And Farah Trumpeter is still a co director in the company today.

Arlen: 19:04

People you know and trust and had that great relationship with, and you were already building towards a sale of some sort. You already were building in a way that is a prerequisite for the worker cooperative as well, that they're prepared and able to be effective with the team they have.

Sarah: 19:21

Yes, that's the

Arlen: 19:22

goal. And I'm sure it's really gratifying as you describe being on the board to see that be a success and to see them move things forward. Totally. Yeah. If you were to give another agency owner advice as they consider the options for sellings, what do you think for them? We've talked about the leadership team, but what might need to be true of them for a worker cooperative to be a good match for their exit? Are there any characteristics of the original owner or partners? That might make them a better match for that exit

Sarah: 19:57

as a selling owner. You don't necessarily have to exit. I have met agencies that converted to coops where the founders or original owners retain some percentage of ownership or still play a leadership role. It's not so much about exiting. You don't necessarily have to exit. But I do think that For the exiting or for the selling owner, probably the biggest barrier to converting your business to a co op is that there is no individual typically guaranteeing the note in a typical deal where you sell privately. You have some guarantees if the people buying your business default in some way, there is a person or people you can go after for the money they're signing on the note.

Arlen: 20:49

Yeah,

Sarah: 20:49

right. And that gives you, as the selling owner, some assurance in a worker owned cooperative deal. That is typically not the case. The worker owners are buying in. But they are not putting themselves personally on the hook. There may be other levers you can pull in the structuring of that deal, but I think you have to have very, very high degree of confidence in the people who are running the business that for the duration of time in which they owe you money, they will run the business successfully, profitably, and pay that debt. I was very confident in my team at Big Duck, and I felt assured that I could do that, but I have talked to other people who really did not. They couldn't afford the risk of the business defaulting.

Arlen: 21:37

So you have to be. Not only have leaders you trust, but you have to be the kind of person who's comfortable with that kind of risk.

Sarah: 21:43

Totally. Which hopefully you are, because you're an

Arlen: 21:45

entrepreneur. Yeah.

Sarah: 21:46

But, you know, if this money in the deal is, you know, funding your retirement, or funding your kids something, or whatever, That becomes a little bit more high stakes.

Arlen: 21:58

And what about ESOPs? Can you tell me any thoughts you have about those and their fitness for an agency exit?

Sarah: 22:04

We looked at ESOP as an option, and I know a number of businesses that have gone through the ESOP process. ESOPs are terrific for a number of reasons, but they're really only viable for larger agencies. The typical ESOP has 10 million or more in annual revenue, 40 or more employees. ESOPs come with some incredible tax advantages. But they also come with a lot of administrative work. So, Big Duck was too small to really consider ESOPing, and most of the people I coach are too small for that to be a real option. There is a third option called employee trusts, which I don't really know much about. At the time we were looking into it, it came off the table quickly enough that I didn't really understand it. But employee trusts are a third model for employee ownership, too.

Arlen: 22:51

So, on a basic level, an ESOP becomes an option at a certain size, and below that size, the worker cooperative is available. And it feels like a pretty different ethos to me, from everything I've read and looked into. I haven't been part of an ESOP before, but it certainly feels like a different ethos coming out of a worker cooperative, in terms of the experience for the team.

Sarah: 23:11

It can be. I mean, one of the great things about coops is that when you're setting it up, it's very flexible. You can make a lot of decisions on your own about how it works. So, for instance, you can decide. If an employee wants to buy in and become a worker owner, you can set the dollar amount they buy in at, you can set the terms of like, do you have to be a full time employee? How long do you have to work there before you can buy in? Are there tiers? Many people I know are familiar with co ops with in the food world, like, you know, food belong to a food co op, or if you live in a city, you might live in a building that is a co op. It's actually the same model. It can be designed quite flexibly. Unfortunately, you probably don't know what the options are. And you really need an advisor who's an expert in these conversions to help you figure it out.

Arlen: 24:00

What is life like after your exits? Because you mentioned the whole goal here was to set yourself up for the next phase of your professional journey.

Sarah: 24:08

Yeah, for me, I began my life and career in the creative world. I went to art school. I began as a designer. And when I set my sights on exiting, I knew I wanted to do something that I wanted to come back to that more. That was one part of what I was thinking about. The other part was that I love using my business brain. But I wanted a lot more flexibility and I wanted to no longer have employees. I didn't want to be responsible for other people's livelihoods and management the way I had been. So I transitioned into this new chapter where I coach on a very limited basis, just two or three days a week. I only coach people who are late stage in their career, very senior, often grappling with some of the kinds of things I've been through. The rest of the time I do a lot of volunteer work. I am back to a very vibrant, personal, creative practice, teaching, drawing at a local arts organization. I'm just having a lot of fun. So I get to use both sides of my brain and work much more flexibly. And that's feeling really good. Would recommend.

Arlen: 25:15

Yeah, about that. Do you feel like the timing was right if you could go back and think in the broad scope of life as a whole? Do you think exiting when you did from these two agencies was right? Would you do that earlier?

Sarah: 25:27

I think the timing was right for me. It's important as you think about your career to really get clarity no matter who you are and what you do. about a few things. I think it's really important to get your arms around your finances. Like, if you want to retire early or retire at 65, you need to know what that number is, that dollar amount is. And you have to be very clear about how you're going to get there. A lot of the people like Coach don't really start thinking about that or get that kind of financial clarity until it's really too late in the game to hit that number. So I think that's a really important part. And also, I think it's really important to think about the chapters you want your career to have. I always knew that as much as I loved Big Duck, I didn't want to just do that one thing for my whole career. You have to be really pragmatic about the time. Time is finite. You gotta, you gotta make it happen. Don't be too

Arlen: 26:22

precious about whatever it is you're doing now. Take the time to think about that big picture and decide what's important to you. So, for you, it sounds like the timing did work out quite well, and now you, after many years of being responsible for a team, you don't have that added mental weight of looking out for their livelihood, as you described. And you're also able to maybe have a little more variety in your life between the art and the coaching. So, tell me more about the coaching practice. What are you doing there? What is the experience like working with you, and sort of the options?

Sarah: 26:57

Yeah. Well, that's kind of been evolving, but typically the way I work with people is if they reach out to me. I do no marketing of my coaching at all. You can find me at ComptonDurham. com. Most of the folks I work with reach out to me and we start with an exploratory call and we talk about their goals and I explain how I coach. I mean, the assumption in coaching the way I practice it is that you, the client, are the expert in you. And I am here to be a thought partner to help you move faster or get unstuck. For a lot of the people I work with, because they are very senior, these are brilliant people. I'm not a consultant. A consultant presumes I know more than you know, you know. These are brilliant people who really just need a safe space to think things through, process what's going on. It's often helpful for that space to be outside of their business, a kind of, you know, safe, a third party. I do some preliminary kind of ramp up stuff with every new client, but then, you know, it's like a Calendly link, you book calls when you need them. And I have some folks who book calls a lot when they're going through something. They'd like a little bit more help with, and I have folks who we meet maybe once a month or every six weeks, and that's great, too.

Arlen: 28:13

And I think that's really interesting, that flexibility for people to ramp up their engagement or down with you as their needs evolve. It's not too structured.

Sarah: 28:22

Yeah. And that is one of the privileges of being where I am in my life is that I can afford to do that. It gives the flexibility that I offer my clients benefits me too. If I have a day where I have very few coaching calls, great. That's a day where I get to paint more. If I have a busy day, great. That's fun too. It's all good.

Arlen: 28:43

I think you mentioned to me that you have that one on one coaching, but you also have some group options that you do as well. I do.

Sarah: 28:51

I do. I've done some, I've put together some different cohorts over the past few years. One of the most vibrant ones is a group for agency owners. And that group is going into its second year, and most of the people in the group are coming back. We're adding a couple of people to the group. But those are just peer agencies. I facilitate a conversation based on what the group wants to talk about. It's a place to get support, share ideas, show off things that you're excited about. As the boss of a business, sometimes there isn't a place where you get to Pat yourself on the back or celebrate. So we try to do some of that, too.

Arlen: 29:23

What are some good reasons for someone to consider engaging with you and to chat with you, Sarah?

Sarah: 29:28

I find that my best coaching clients, the folks who benefit the most from coaching, are people who have a growth mindset. They are always trying to learn, to grow, to develop. They are often people who are also in therapy. So they're working on themselves internally in therapy. Coaching is more forward and action oriented. The best reason to reach out is if you feel like you'd benefit from somebody to help you move faster. towards a goal, help you get unstuck, or if you really just feel like you need something that would be beneficial to be in conversation with somebody as you're trying to process some of the things you're working on.

Arlen: 30:10

Yeah. So a lot of this sounds like being a thinking partner. I, I often say we don't think enough. We could benefit from it. And I don't mean ruminating, but slowing down, putting our feet up and saying, where am I going? Bigger picture. How is that going? What am I learning? How can I apply that? Not the planning, which is really important too, and of course we need to do things, take action, but more time for thinking. And it sounds like a lot of what you're providing is a great place to think, to process, to reflect with your clients.

Sarah: 30:39

If I'm working with somebody who wants to do planning, we can do planning. If they are dealing with an HR crisis, we talk about the HR crisis. It's responsive. But yes, I think a different way to say what you're saying is that it's kind of holding space for things that are important, but not always urgent. And as a busy person, as a business owner, it's very hard to do that. Sometimes working with a coach forces you to make that space.

Arlen: 31:05

Yeah, I like to say it's like having a client for that kind of thing, right? Because you make time for your clients. So you have a coach for that important in the long term. For your life and your business, what are you most looking forward to in 2025? You

Sarah: 31:19

know, that's a great question. 2025 is for me, I think going to be a fun year. Personally, my kids are both studying abroad and I'm going to do some traveling to visit them with my partner. So I'm looking forward to that. And then I think professionally and creatively with each year, I move past being an agency owner. I step more fully into the identity. And clarity of what this next chapter is about. So I'm looking forward to continuing that journey. I think in the agency world, I'm most looking forward to seeing how things are going to shake out with AI, because 2024 seemed to be a year that A lot of agencies started saying, okay, what are we doing here? How, what's going to happen? How are we going to react or develop in this new environment? I think 2025, I hope we're going to see some really exciting new stuff in the agency world and probably some challenging stuff in terms of shakeups and some disruption. I think we're seeing disruption, but I'm sure there will be more,

Arlen: 32:17

more to come. I think it's really neat hearing your story and that there is potential for a great next act after exiting your agency and, and you've done this a couple of times. I know that whole process can feel daunting, a little overwhelming for people. Pretty small percentage of agencies sell right like have an exit like this probably more often they shut down but with planning with intention, you can, you can achieve this and it's worked out really well for you that effort you put in to get to where you are today.

Sarah: 32:47

It's true. And I would add to that before I bought Advomatic and before I exited my businesses, I had goals, but I didn't really know how to do it. And it seems intimidating. A lot of people sometimes think about shutting down their business or pivoting in other ways. Mostly because they just don't know how to go about doing it. But actually, it's not rocket science. You really don't need to spend a lot of money with fancy consultants. You need a great lawyer, a great accountant, and you need to know what you want. And so I think, I think it is a healthy thing to run your business so that you can sell it and then, you know, explore the options. Might be good.

Arlen: 33:26

Amazing. Well, it's been great to chat with you. I look forward to seeing your journey develop in this new season, and we'll share some links in the show notes if you want to get in touch with Sarah, explore the possibility of working together in the future. That option is there. Enjoy the rest of your day and your year.

Sarah: 33:44

Arlen, thank you for having me.

Arlen: 33:45

Take care. Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Agency Health Podcast. You'll find key takeaways and links for this episode in the show notes. If you found this episode valuable, consider subscribing and sharing. Take care and be well.