Arlen: 0:03

Welcome to the agency health podcast, where we dig deeper into key agency health topics, the what, why, and how mining actionable insights to build a better firm. This episode is part of a mini series on beginning with the end in mind. As we'll find, building for your exit from the start helps create a thriving agency that delivers great value for you, your team, and your clients. On this episode, I'm talking to Jonathan Baker of Punctuation about exit preparedness. Only a small percentage of firms are ever successfully sold, but you can better your odds as Jonathan will share. His journey includes business school, marketing strategy for Fortune 500 CPGs, Co founding and growing a craft brewery into one of the nation's largest. Now, Jonathan leads the M& A practice at Punctuation, bringing his experience from dozens of deals inside and outside the industry. So Jonathan, excited to have the chance to chat a little bit about the, the end of an agency, really for the people who started it when, whenever I'm, I'm talking to an agency owner or a business leader, I'm, I'm always first thinking about where are you trying to go? You know, what is, what is the destination, the outcome? Beginning and structuring your whole approach to business based on what matters to you there. What are the outcomes? What's the future you want to build? And and some of that, of course, is the future you're building as you're running your firm. But there for most people, there's going to be life life after the firm. And so how are you setting yourself up for the kind of future you really want to have? So can you, can you frame in for us your high level perspective on, on exit preparedness, you know, why does this matter to someone who is maybe earlier in their journey? They're, they're not planning an exit anytime soon. Who is this really relevant to?

Jonathan: 2:03

Yeah. So, you know, you mentioned starting kind of at the beginning with the end in mind, right? And we do the same. I think. When we ask, you know, where are you trying to get to? A lot of firm owners will tell me, you know, their, their goals for the next year, year's revenue. And I have to back up and say, no, no, no. Where do you personally want to end up? Yeah. Like, why did you start this firm? And then you'll start getting into some of the real reasons, but you know, exit preparedness, I think is relevant to, Really, any firm owner, even if you don't plan on exiting, but building your firm in a way to make it attractive to exit actually is the same process as building your firm in a way that makes it well run. So, you know, thinking about the things that a buyer would value in your firm can really help you build a better firm around yourself as well.

Arlen: 3:05

So what you've, what you've seen is those, those needs align pretty well in terms of having a journey as an owner that is positive and running a healthy firm, uh, it's, it's going to be more or less the same as what's going to matter to a buyer. Yeah, exactly. And, and as you've talked to, Owners who have made the exit and sold their firm. What are, what are the biggest regrets that you hear? What are the things that people say after the fact? Hey, I wish I had. And, and what can we learn from those things?

Jonathan: 3:38

Uh, you know, focusing on some of the fundamentals earlier on, I think is one of the big things. And those, the two big ones for me are profit and your client portfolio, the makeup of your client portfolio. And, you know, a lot of firm owners are focused first on revenue and they might be, you know, taking a hit on profit because they think they're building a better culture, for example, and you know, when it comes to client concentration, that, that really represents risk to a buyer. And so if you have this, you know, gorilla client, that's 75 percent of your Your billings, what are you going to do? What can you do to start correcting that over time? Right? Cause that's not something you can do overnight. Right. Um, and so starting that process earlier on, I think is something that, that some folks wish they had done.

Arlen: 4:31

Yeah. So overall planning ahead more and working ahead more towards that exit is, is one of the biggest things that you hear.

Jonathan: 4:39

Yeah. And I mean, frankly, you know, if we're talking about just like just Really practical thing. Yeah. Switching to accrual based accounting earlier on,

Arlen: 4:49

you're

Jonathan: 4:49

going to have to switch to it before you sell. So you may as well get the benefits of it now.

Arlen: 4:55

And that would be probably three, three plus years before you sell. You're really going to want to be doing that at minimum.

Jonathan: 5:01

Yeah. And if you, and if you don't, you know, a seller's going to make you go back and. And do it. So you're going to be end up paying for it either way.

Arlen: 5:10

So that's, that's a great example, maybe of what you've described, like the, the benefits to owners of preparing for a sale, you know, creating the kind of world that they want, even before they sell, how does, how does accrual as an example, help owners have a better experience and, and create more value while they're running the firm.

Jonathan: 5:29

So I don't know if it helps them have a better experience, but it helps them be more honest with themselves. Yeah. It's reality. Yeah, and just because you're, you're running accrual books, that doesn't mean you have to file taxes on accrual. You can still file taxes on all back to cash. Yeah. Yeah. But looking at accrual, you're not, you know, you know, if you're billing 50 percent of a project up front, but you haven't done the work yet, you're not seeing that revenue until you do the work, which is just a truer. You know, way to look at the firm. And it usually ends up smoothing out some of the, the ups and downs in your revenues, because it's, it's recognized only when you do it, which, you know, takes time

Arlen: 6:14

from what you've seen, thinking about health there. Do you think that people running accruals manage their finances differently as well in practice? Does that influence the decisions that they're making day to day running the firm?

Jonathan: 6:27

You know, I don't know if they manage their finances differently, but it certainly impacts the decisions they're making because they're looking at different data.

Arlen: 6:34

Right.

Jonathan: 6:35

And, you know, you might think that your, your 2023 was awful, but maybe it wasn't awful. Maybe just you had a huge chunk of money that got slipped into January that should have in December. And so, you know, it, I think just knowing the truth is more important than what you're looking at. Right. And accruals helpful to get you there.

Arlen: 6:58

Yeah, I talk about this often. The first business book that I remember reading was execution and the discipline of of getting things done. And the key thought that I took away there was, you know, execution is about exposing reality and acting on it. And at its core, that's what it comes down to. And often we. We actually don't want to know what real is, right? Like it's ugly. And so we'd rather try to ignore it and yeah, maybe, maybe focus on revenue instead of profit, for example, because that, that feels easier than maybe solving the deeper issues. Yep. Exactly. Right. So one of the things that I found really helpful in my journey is, is thinking about systems and habits over, over goals and goals are, are still useful, obviously, but thinking about how to turn a goal or an objective into more of a system or a habit. And so it's really curious thinking about exit preparedness and whether it's profit client portfolio. I know there's a lot of different aspects building a strong leadership team, but. If you were to try to distill this down into one or maybe a few habits that, hey, if, if you do this consistently, you'll probably be on the right track. You know, this is, it could be a habit that is down to the weekly level, the annual level, but from what you've seen working with owners, yeah, could you, could you distill exit preparedness down to, Maybe one core habit, understanding it doesn't cover everything.

Jonathan: 8:33

I would say really sitting down and reviewing your financials. And I know that's not fun necessarily for agency owners, but, uh, just forcing yourself to look at the reality and, you know, knowing that you've look, you've got a profitability target of 20%. How are you doing on that? Yeah. And if you're not hitting it, Dig in figure out why why not make adjustments. Don't wait till the end of the year. Don't wait. Don't wait for a quarter You're in an agile business. You don't have a ton of assets, right? You've got people you've got relationships You've got clients all of that It's kind of a lot of it's within your control to change quickly. And so use those monthly meetings to make informed. And if you're consistently hitting profitability targets, that means a lot of things are, are changing. And,

Arlen: 9:36

and who would you, who do you want in those meetings? Who should be part of that habit of really looking at the financials, making sure to understand them and, and that action is being taken on?

Jonathan: 9:47

Ideally, it's anyone who has a significant ability. To change the outcome of the numbers, whether that's on the revenue side or the cost side, right? So, you know, maybe you're not sharing all the numbers with everyone, but, you know, for your sales salespeople, for example, they, they kind of need to know where they are on the revenue side with targets. And then on your, your ops, people need to know on the cost side, how are they doing? So, uh, you know, generally it's going to be kind of your, your senior leadership team. That's, that's who's in those meetings. So we're seeing them, frankly, to come to those meetings and prepare and not just have the CFO or your accountant report out, having them engage and come up with solutions to present to you can be really helpful.

Arlen: 10:42

One of the struggles that I've seen is, is actually getting that data turned around timely, right? I don't, I don't know if, if in your work on the M& A side, I'm sure you've run into similar kinds of challenges with, with data. But yeah, any, any advice you'd have for people who are trying to turn that into a monthly habit? How can they? Get the numbers faster and have that time to to really form a plan,

Jonathan: 11:08

you know There's no real reason you can't close the books in ten days So in my experience, it's usually the stuff that's reliant on other people That you're waiting on and yeah, that could be credit card expenses, right? so maybe try to line up your your credit card reporting dates with You Your financial reporting dates, make sure that you can do what you can there. Right. Then just make it a habit for anyone who you need input. You know, as soon as you close, as soon as the first rolls around, you need to be reviewing your credit card expenses and tagging them. And if not, you're going to get hounded.

Arlen: 11:52

There's someone who owns that, owns that process of making sure it all, it all comes together quickly. Yeah. And

Jonathan: 11:57

that's not going to be the owner. You know, delegate that

Arlen: 12:03

to whoever's doing your books. Yeah. And a good point that there may be things that can be changed there that feel like they can't like simple things like your, your statement month, you know, what it runs. So you can close that out more clean in, in terms of the, when, so going back a little bit to regrets owners have with, with those that you've worked with on transactions, do they typically say, Hey, I wish I did this sooner. You know, what are their thoughts about the timing of transactions?

Jonathan: 12:33

It depends on their fluency with the process. But I think, you know, in general, you should expect that once you sell, which can be a year long process.

Arlen: 12:44

Yeah.

Jonathan: 12:44

That you'll need to continue working at that firm for the new owners for another two to three years in order to really maximize your earn out. And so think of it as a three to four year process overall, which means that you kind of need to back into and make some educated guesses around like when you're Going to be running out of gas or, you know, retirement, you know, when you want to be able to retire. So you just have to kind of plan for the three to four year

Arlen: 13:18

eventuality. And then that would be based on you having already done a few years of solid preparation in many cases, right? If you didn't begin with the end in mind, then you probably need a few years on the front end of that to prepare for sale as well, right? Yeah.

Jonathan: 13:34

Yeah, that's only to your point. If you didn't begin with the end in mind, if you're, if you're running a good firm, there's not, it's not like there's a bunch of extra stuff you need to do. It can be, it can be a really simple process to go to market. If your books are clean, if you know, you're profitable, if you've, you're well positioned. So,

Arlen: 13:54

and you talk to a lot of people who are considering this process, right? Considering an exit. What what causes people to put it off? What causes people to maybe delay other than the obvious, you know? Hey, I'd like to maybe hit a bigger a bigger number Are there other things that you see patterns of people putting off moving ahead with an exit?

Jonathan: 14:17

you know, I think it feels like a black box to a lot of owners and There's this, you know, cloak of secrecy around M& A. I take a fair amount of calls with owners who are huddling in their cars because they don't, you know, want anyone to get a whisper of what's going on. But they're,

Arlen: 14:37

they're looking at that or thinking

Jonathan: 14:39

about that.

Arlen: 14:40

Yeah, yeah,

Jonathan: 14:41

which is fine. But it's, it's more, you know, the unknown, right? And what is it actually going to take from me? To get up to speed and do I have that time right now? And, you know, if you're using someone like me, doesn't have to be me, but to help guide you through that process, it really doesn't have to be overwhelming or particularly time consuming. And I think people just have this fear that it's gonna be kind of this all consuming thing. It's a big thing they've never done before. Yeah, it is. And it is a big thing. It is a big thing. But it might not take as much of a time commitment as you think.

Arlen: 15:21

What I'm hearing is probably the, the scale of the whole thing feels a bit overwhelming or, or a lot of uncertainty for people who haven't been through the process. And so, in your experience, people maybe feel like, hey, that wasn't quite what I thought as they go through the process. Maybe it is a little more accessible, a little bit less difficult in some ways than they imagined. Less

Jonathan: 15:44

difficult in some ways more difficult than others. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think also when people are Considering Selling, you know, a lot of folks don't even know if their firm is sellable, right? And they don't really you know, you just don't take the time to find out right? But yeah, the reality is more firms than you would think are sellable. You see these big transactions online What you don't see are all the tiny transactions, because they don't necessarily merit, you know, an ad week. Not newsworthy, but still real. They're happening. You know, firms are still selling if they're under a million in revenue.

Arlen: 16:24

Mm hmm. So don't write off the possibility, and don't be too overwhelmed by this experience you've not had before. There are people who can help you and there are transactions happening that might be outside of the parameters that you imagine. Exactly. So getting, getting to that, I know this is something you, you talk about a lot, but what measurable factors most impact exit? And and specifically two things there that minimize the difficulty of finding and coming to terms with a buyer so that helped to kind of streamline that process and also that that maximized evaluation. Can you just just give us a summary of of those few that you would say are most important?

Jonathan: 17:07

I can, uh, that term measurable. You threw in there really throws me off because some of this stuff is. Yeah. Okay.

Arlen: 17:14

Yeah. Let's, let's write that off. Let's just say factors without the measurable part. I like measurable because I'm a numbers guy, right? But I know that there's qualitative that's really important as well.

Jonathan: 17:24

Yeah. Yeah. And look, we've touched on some of the, the measurable stability kind of being client concentration and client concentration, right? Recurring revenue. If you've got any, anything that resembles recurring revenue, that's going to be a pro. That's not a. That's not to say that you need it, but it's nice to have some of the things that maybe are a little bit more qualitative one is your positioning. So making sure that you are tightly positioned, not only will that help increase the multiple you get on your. EBITDA increasing the value of your firm, but it will also help find the right buyers. So it makes it easier to identify if buyers are going to be a good fit. It was a good compliment to this business. Exactly right now, right out of the gate. Um, and frankly, If you are working in, you know, a, a particular vertical odds are you might be rubbing shoulders with potential acquirers already. Um, another thing, uh, that we recommend is developing repeatable business development processes that are not 100%. Reliant on the founder. Yeah, because a buyer is going to say, well, yeah, you're doing all the sales now But what happens when you go away, right? So you you need how do we know it's gonna work great? Yeah Yeah That you can still bring in and close leads and that doesn't mean you need to be a hundred percent out of the business Process actually that would I would say be bad but have some support around you And have a business development process, even if you don't have to use

Arlen: 19:01

it

Jonathan: 19:01

all the time.

Arlen: 19:02

What's the risk profile there for them? Like you say, with, with you out of the picture, do they have confidence? Hey, this, this can be, these responsibilities can be transitioned to someone else successfully. It's not just based on your, your network and trust, right? And, you know,

Jonathan: 19:18

if they don't think that they're going to be able to get the sales without you, that doesn't mean you were not sellable, but it does mean that you're probably going to have to stick around for longer. They're going to write that into the contract that you're going to be there for four years instead of three, maybe, or a greater percentage of the earn out is based on you hitting revenue targets in the future. Yeah. Okay. Last, I would say just have a strong bench, uh, strong leadership team that, that works well together. These are, you know, these acquisitions, I think people think that they're just going to get absorbed into some big corporate entity. That rarely happens. Usually they're actually still run as relatively standalone entities. There might be some. Uh, you know, operational kind of shared services, but keeping the name even is pretty common to keep these firms, you know, looking independent. And so having a strong leadership team can be, can be helpful.

Arlen: 20:22

How, how have you seen that play out? I know there are a variety of options there and how that leadership team might experience a transaction. How common are, you know, buyouts by the leadership team? How common are members of the leadership team participating in some meaningful way in the value generated by the transaction? Either of those

Jonathan: 20:46

pretty, pretty common to sell to. Some of your leadership team, um, you know, we work on a lot of those transactions and that can be a really good way to get value out of your business. And you know, that culturally things are going to, you know, stay the same. And yeah, the process is generally smoother and they already know the business. So they know the business, right. They're invested in, in its success. If they're not the ones buying it. Their ability to capitalize on the transaction is, is pretty related to how important the buyer thinks they are to the continual running of the business.

Arlen: 21:24

Right.

Jonathan: 21:25

So if they are integral, then you'll see things like retention bonuses that might be, you know, annual, right? To kind of entice them to stay around for longer. Sometimes you might see these bonuses paid out by the seller as well. If the seller says that, you know what? The buyer's not, not really. Valuing these folks enough, but I need them here because I need them to hit the numbers in order to maximize my output. So I'll just throw in some money.

Arlen: 21:55

And overall transaction landscape is such that they can, they can afford to do that while still feeling like they've gotten a reasonable deal. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That makes sense. Back to positioning. Have you noticed any patterns at all with the ease of finding and coming to terms with a buyer related to horizontal versus vertical positioning? I know your dad talks about both of these being potentially really good ways to position yourself, right? And there's been some, some interesting discussion lately on LinkedIn about that, but yeah, it does this impact the ability to, to find and come to terms with a No.

Jonathan: 22:34

I mean, it's going to be a different type of buyer, but you've got buyers looking for capabilities, and then you also have buyers looking for domain expertise and industry expertise either. Yeah, so either way is fine.

Arlen: 22:51

And the last question about these factors, particularly maybe back to the measurable ones, how does trend factor in versus the absolute value? So looking at profit or. Yeah. Your client portfolio or, or any of these factors that are more measurable, you know, how, how that number is developing and the direction it's going versus what it is today, trend is

Jonathan: 23:13

helpful, but not usually to the extent that people think, so sure, it's great to have positive trends showing growth, right? Year over year, whether that's on profit or revenue or both, but the reality is things happen. The market happens and. Buyers understand that. So if you have a, a story around your numbers, a good reasons for things not lining up exactly how you'd like, maybe it could be something like, you know, we had an investment year, right? Like we wanted to make sure that we were setting ourselves up for success in a few years. So this last year looks down. Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. That's fine. And you also don't want to have growth that looks too strong. Um, because there are going to be questions around, well, where are you going to end up? What's the sustainability of this? And obviously you're going to want to be valued on, you know, your most recent numbers. But the reality is these deals usually are valued on, you know, some kind of weighted average of three years or so. Uh, and so there's no real huge benefit to growing super quickly. The

Arlen: 24:32

volatility, it sounds like, even if it looks positive, is, it can actually be a negative.

Jonathan: 24:38

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Usually quick growth is also associated with a client concentration problem as well. Right,

Arlen: 24:45

right. Things that aren't repeatable or sustainable necessarily. And, and thinking, stepping back a little bit with the, the agencies you've worked with over the years, are there patterns of behavior that you associate with agencies that seem healthier? Like, you can notice these things early on, maybe even before or without getting into the numbers and whatnot. You can say, hey, this is a signal to me that this is probably a healthier firm that's headed in the right direction.

Jonathan: 25:16

Yeah, you know, I can actually tell a lot about a firm from looking at their P& L and balance sheet not the numbers But the way that it's set up. Okay. Yeah And what they're running through the business. So if you Are not running personal expenses through the business. For example, that is a very positive sign that you're running the business in a more operationally focused manner and sure you're not getting all the tax advantages or whatever of expensing your vacation, but all that kind of stuff muddies up your financials. And kind of sends a signal to folks that you're not even really paying attention to the financials. You're, you're, you're kind of, you know, focused on your personal outcomes, which isn't necessarily bad. But that's one of the patterns I, I see. Usually the owner has a pretty good, Grasp on the numbers

Arlen: 26:13

from

Jonathan: 26:14

the beginning and they can rattle off. You know, we were at 2. 5 million last year We'll probably hit 2. 6 this year Yeah, so being familiar with where you are is usually a really strong sign

Arlen: 26:28

And that goes back to that habit that you talked about of reviewing and acting on the numbers every month So if they're they're doing that then obviously they're going to be acquainted with the numbers You

Jonathan: 26:39

And then your homepage. I mean, if I go visit your homepage and I can tell exactly what you do immediately, that's a good sign. If, if I see that you are basically an integrated firm that serves all industries, then I I'm like, Oh, okay. This is going to be a little more difficult. I mean, we might have some work to do on the kind of marketing and positioning side before we even start thinking about. Putting you up for sale

Arlen: 27:06

and and what about what about for your, your own situation with punctuation running a two person firm that is making a big impact in the market has lots more impact to make, but it is a little different than the firms you you consult with and advise how, how do you think about exit planning internally and and the future of your own firm?

Jonathan: 27:28

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I think before I came on board five years ago or so, you know, there was no exit plan at this point. I am kind of the exit plan, but we are different in that there is not as much value or sellability outside of the personalities associated with the firm. And so, You know, I, I'm under no illusion that unless this thing gets built bigger and has more of a staff and more process behind it, you know, less of a boutique, it's not really going to be sellable. That doesn't mean we can't get there, but, you know. No, that's not

Arlen: 28:08

the only path to

Jonathan: 28:08

value,

Arlen: 28:09

right? There's not there. Yeah, right. Yeah. Right. So, so how do you think about that? I mean, those options of. Being, being really successful as a boutique firm and being able to, you know, extract profit from the firm all along the way and diversify and, you know, invest that other places. Versus building a firm and, and selling it because a lot of agency owners do have to make a similar decision, maybe not about selling, but about their trajectory. Now, do I want to grow something large or do I want to keep something small that maybe is very profitable for its size and I can sell it maybe, but a lot of the value I get is actually extracting profit along the way.

Jonathan: 28:50

Yeah. I think of it as. You know, what matches my own personality and I don't want to run a 50 person M& A advisory, uh, I still want to be able to work directly with, you know, the founders. So that probably caps us at 10 to 15 people max. And I'm not really thinking about selling. I'm thinking about what does it take to grow, to get there, to a place where I'm still happy and not feeling trapped. By the word. Yeah. And then if we get there and it is sellable, then sure, we can think about it. But yeah, it's really about the kind of extracting value as we go.

Arlen: 29:28

And I think that is, I mean, as much as I'm a believer in beginning with the end in mind and know where you're going, you know, put the ladder up against the right wall before you start climbing it. All these I love metaphors, right? All these great mental pictures. It is most of the time is going to be spent in that journey of getting from from point A to point B. And so I hear you describing. Yeah. Yeah. The qualities that will help you to enjoy that experience, create a great experience for your clients and really understanding those factors for yourself. And, and letting that shape a lot of what you're, what you're doing and how you're doing. Exactly. So for, for people who aren't planning an exit anytime soon, but they really do want to operate their firm in, in a healthy way generally, but also in a way that is going to help set them up for a good exit. What are some of the resources that, that you offer that punctuation offers to, to agencies?

Jonathan: 30:24

Well, we have a ton of free. Resources on our sites, you know, articles, past webinars about M& A and what you can do to prepare. We usually put on. One, at least one M and a focused event per year, you know, and that's usually targeted at business owners who are two to three years out from selling open up the black box a little bit. And exactly. And, you know, help them make connections as well. So we'll bring in speakers for that. I think, well, we also just came out with a book I should mention. Sell Your Professional Service Firm, a primer, which my father wrote. So, you know, that's a really, I think, helpful way to get some info without having to commit more than

Arlen: 31:13

a couple dozen bucks. Very inexpensive way to begin getting an education and getting around. That's, that's on Amazon. It's on

Jonathan: 31:22

Audible. However you prefer. And, you know, one thing that I do actually strongly suggest, even if you don't plan on selling soon, is getting a valuation soon. Yeah. If you think about your personal net worth, odds are this business you're running and own is a big part of your personal net worth. And you do, you, you do, you have no idea how much it costs or it's worth, right? Like, I mean, maybe you have some ballpark idea, but you don't know what the drivers are exactly until you get that valuation done. And, you know, that's something that like feels like, Oh, maybe why would I get one done years before? Well, so you can start tracking that over time as well. It can be a really great planning tool coupled with, you know, a, uh, a forecast.

Arlen: 32:17

And that's not a really involved process, right? Like what, what is that experience like for someone working with you to do evaluation and to keep that updated year after year as well?

Jonathan: 32:27

Yeah, it's a three to four week total process, but your involvement is usually three to four hours max. And you know, it's 5, 000 bucks the first time, but if we're doing it annually, updating it, then it's 2, 500 bucks a year after that. And you still get, you know, a meeting to kind of consult about what the, what's the market,

Arlen: 32:48

how things are evolving internally, externally, right? It seems like a great value for having that clear perspective on, on where you may be going and being able to get an honest perspective from the outside on where you are on that journey.

Jonathan: 33:05

Yeah, I think it also is it is it's a good value But it's also something that'll set you apart from other firm owners, right? To

Arlen: 33:11

me

Jonathan: 33:12

to know that you're thinking about the right things and thinking about the future in ways that your competitors might not be

Arlen: 33:18

Yeah, so the the work you do Jonathan it it seems really rewarding but also kind of intense How do you balance your life out? What are some of the things you enjoy doing that work a little different part of your day? Your mind, your body

Jonathan: 33:32

mentally. I run. So I run just to get the thoughts out. Usually. Yeah. I also love making cocktails. I've gotten really into Legos recently, and I also host a poker game at our house, which is a lot of fun.

Arlen: 33:48

I think a lot of. Owners at certain points in their journey, maybe feel like the business is really all consuming. How, how do you find the payoff works out for you from the things you've really balance your, your life.

Jonathan: 34:00

Yeah, I mean I almost it's it's not really about is it hard. It's more like I have to so How do I make time for them? You know, I've gone through periods of my life where my profession has Become a much larger piece of my self worth than it should be and that's just not a place I want to go back to you know I'm a, I'm a smart, well rounded person, happy to talk to you about almost anything. Yes. This is what I do for a living. And, you know, so I can go really deep if you want to talk agency M and a, but now, you know, there are other things that kind of inform who you are. It's not your whole

Arlen: 34:38

identity. Yeah. And as, as you look ahead, you close out this year now, right. And look ahead. Are there any, any things you're really excited about for, for the next year, for 2025?

Jonathan: 34:48

Uh, you know, the M and a side of our practice has been growing pretty substantially over the past three years, and I'm really excited to see where next year takes it. I think, you know, it's been growing kind of in spite of a slower market basically, but now that interest rates are cooling off, the market might pick up a little bit too. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's at least more certainty around the election, but what we'll see, I am excited to, to see things, you know, pick up and. Really kind of dig in

Arlen: 35:21

and that might mean it sounds like looking at your team as well over the next few years and maybe Maybe growing that a little bit I would love to be in a position to do that. Well, appreciate your time today, Jonathan. I'll, I'll be sharing some of the links that you talked about to resources that people can start taking advantage of. Also, there's, there's the list, right? That for someone who might want to sell in the future, that people can, can jump on, right?

Jonathan: 35:47

Yes. Yes. We have a database of firms that, you know, aren't ready to sell, but are thinking about it in the future. And when we have a buyer come to us, we'll take a quick look through that and see if there's see if there are any great matches. Yeah,

Arlen: 36:01

exactly. Yeah. We'll wish you well with the close of your year there and we'll look forward to our next chat. Absolutely. Thank you. Take care. Thank you for joining us for this episode of the agency health podcast. You'll find key takeaways and links for this episode in the show notes. If you found this episode valuable, consider subscribing and sharing. Take care and be well.